Episode 140:
Revenue Cycle, AI, and the Future of Healthcare Work

CJ Wolf: 00:00
Welcome everybody to another episode of Compliance Conversations. I'm CJ Wolf with Healthicity. And today's guest is I'm sorry, Vanessa Moldovan. Vanessa, welcome to the show.

Vanessa Moldovan: 00:13
Thank you so much, CJ. I appreciate it. I'm excited.

CJ Wolf: 00:17
Yeah. We're so excited to have you. You know, we we made contact uh at uh HealthCon. Um you've got so much experience, so much kind of uh career growth and evolution, and we're gonna talk about all sorts of cool things about that. But before we get into those specifics, we always uh invite our guests to tell us a little bit about themselves, uh, as much or as little as you'd like to share. We'd love to hear it.

Vanessa Moldovan: 00:41
Yeah, sure. Thanks. Yeah, so um I'm Vanessa Moldovan and I uh have been in the physician revenue cycle industry for about 30 years. And I, you know, uh careers is one thing I love to talk about just because uh it's so fascinating to ask everybody in this industry because it's a different story every time. So it's always like, okay, what's your path? You know, nobody nobody's is the same, and I I love that. Um, but I kind of, you know, might be what you would call um a homegrown. So I started out in a registration role and in a in a small town ER and decided didn't want to be really patient-facing and and went back to the CBO and then kind of the rest is kind of history. I really liked the idea of being able to help patients, um, but I didn't have to like touch them, you know. So, and the right and um and I loved the processes and the logic and everything. So I just um, you know, throughout the years I worked various roles and got various certifications and uh tried different things and um just been doing it for 30 years. And now I um I guess about uh five years well to be the five year anniversary, I started a podcast as well for the love of revenue cycle. Yeah, and uh focusing like you on education, the industry, that kind of thing, careers. Um, and then um I also around about five years ago also kind of shifted from operations into health tech, which I know we're gonna talk about a little today. So I'm currently the um head of revenue cycle strategy at a company called Magical, and it's real, it's not associated with Disney. It's like it's a real company. And um uh we again we can talk about more about that, but that's what I'm currently doing.

CJ Wolf: 02:24
Cool, cool. Well, so for the love of revenue cycle, so yeah, folks, go check that one out too. Um, sounds really interesting. Yeah. Um yeah, well, thanks uh again for being here. And so let's talk a little bit about some of those things. You know, you know, as you look back, you've probably recognized some big operational challenges in revenue cycle that still haven't been solved. You've been doing this a long time, probably seeing the same problems kind of repeat. Uh so why have they been so difficult to fix? And and what what do you see as some of those big obstacles that are still lingering, if you will?

Vanessa Moldovan: 02:59
Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I'm sure you see the same too. You know, those of us who have been in this for decades, unfortunately, we're sitting here trying to solve for the same problems we were solving for when we started in 1996, you know, um, and and that's challenging and heartbreaking. And um, and so a little bit of background on that, I think, is is helpful. Um, and uh as far as like where I am now and why I think that's important to the conversation, is I recognized about 10 or 15 years ago, I think it's more like 15 now, that as I I do a lot of process improvement. That's really where like my brain goes. I love to get to root cause, I love denials, let's get into the denials, let's let's tear them apart, get to the problems, figure out what the root cause is, and then put processes in place to prevent them. So very much, you know, prevention-minded, you know, um, let's reduce the work of the downstream, you know, as as much as possible. And then I just started seeing like, okay, what really is the root cause? Like the big one, T H E, right? And I really found that it was lack of education and lack of knowledge, lack of standard education and standard knowledge in our industry. And and just seeing like, you know, there's no school we all go to, like you can go to school to do brain surgery. Everybody pretty much learns this is the brain, this is how you do surgery, you know. And there really, there really isn't one for for this industry, unfortunately. And then, and especially when you get into so many nuances and just what we can really refer to as US healthcare reimbursement, right? And so that was really when I started like, okay, well, let's start teaching it then. Let's start getting the word out, let's start getting some education. So I did more public speaking and more uh chapter, local chapter, you know, presentations and stuff like that. And that was where the podcast was born as well, because it was like, how can we get more out, you know, more voices out, and um and around, you know, COVID, like we weren't doing as many, you know, uh live presentations as much. So um, so that was really uh, you know, even with the even today, I think, you know, even with people like yourself and people like myself out there educating, educating, we're still having these same problems. And I really think it still is this lack of standard education. Um, I think another root cause is um payers, you know, and the um how the payers, they kind of make the rules, right? Um, I mean, let's be real, right? So when we talk about healthcare reimbursement, we talk about all the things that we are doing in our processes, and we think like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I having to put the modifier on there, right? Why am I having to put a full name in in this, you know, claim form? Why am I like when you really get to that, like who made this up, right? Many times it's the payer, right, who is making that rule. So um, you know, and that changes, you know, we a lot of this we can't keep up with it, or the there's a big administrative burden around it because of all the steps that we have to take in order to do it. So I think that's a lot too why 30 years later we're still here. And then that kind of leads us to like where I've landed in my career, which is in health tech, right? So, as again, I'm starting like, how can I solve this problem? How can I say because I really feel very strongly that this is this is my passion, this is what I would, my purpose, this is why I'm here, is to really impact the industry in this way and to just uh get as much knowledge out there as possible and uh and to change the industry as much as possible. So when I started, you know, again, looking at root cause, and I was like, okay, a lot of what we're doing in our processes is because the tech we're using is not that great. Wait a minute, who is building this tech? Who's behind it, right? And who, and okay, these engineers, like, does anybody actually know the process? Does anybody know healthcare industry? Who's building them? You know? So when I I wanted to dive more into education, right, really focus on this. And it was like, who do I need to be educating, right? Providers, the people, the revenue cycle professionals. And then I was like, these tech companies need some education, you know. So um, and I was like, do they even do that? Do they even hire people? Like, I don't even know. So, anyway, so long story short, I I actually got recruited through my podcast. There was a tech company out there, I'm sure everybody started Waystar, who was looking to internally educate their sales teams, their product teams, their everybody. They were just like, hey, for us to really be the best in the industry, we need to understand our industry. You know, so um, so that was my first foray into it and um into technology and the need within health tech to understand revenue cycle, to understand the healthcare industry so that these brilliant, brilliant, brilliant people who I cannot do their jobs, right? Like, that they really have what the the thought processes and the uh the knowledge that they need to really build things that truly solve the problems and don't just create more, you know. So I kind of, you know, a lot of times my analogy is like it's like Spanx, right? Spanx does not remove the fat people, it just moves it up, moves it out, moves it over, right? It's not really helping the problem. Like you may not be able to see it, but now you've just pushed it somewhere else where we have to deal with it somewhere else, right? Or we've got um processes in place creating interoperability between this tech and this tech, but they don't actually talk to each other efficiently. So now we have usually a spreadsheet or three people or something connecting it, right? To make it interoperable. So um, so anyway, so that it's all those questions and you know, just wanting to help the industry in that way led me. So for a while, I worked for Waysar Wild, and then for a while I had my own company where I couldn't keep up with the request from tech companies. So let me just put a shout out. Anyone who has Rev Cycle knowledge, you need to be knocking down doors in tech companies because there's so many of them now who are like, they're recognizing this is a gap. This also makes us a differentiator. You know, if we have a tech, if we have a revenue cycle uh uh expert on our team, it makes us a differentiator in the industry. And they've started to realize like, oh yeah, the tech is better if we have the brain of an industry expert. And it's like, duh. Um, and then that's finally what led me to magical. And um, and you know, honestly, I I and I don't, you know, um, I'm not in sales, that's not what I do for magical. You know, I'm literally the internal, you know, um, industry expert. So I work across all the parts of the company. So whether we're talking sales, you know, pre-sales product, engineering, you know, whatever it is, I I am just their go-to. What's a copay? What's a deductible, why are the right? What's the difference between availability and optimum? Why are there five million websites, you know, like exactly? Yeah, exactly. So, um, so anyway, so that's that's really what I do now. And um, you know, just a little bit, you know, and why I kind of landed with magical in particular, it's kind of going back to that problem of lots of tech that doesn't really solve for the the challenge, you know, it'll kind of piecemeal or band-aid or something. Because I I really do believe that agentic AI is kind of be that answer that we've been looking for because it can not only identify the problem, right, and help us to be better thinking, which most of us have used Claude or ChatGPT or something. Like we know an LLM, right? We know AI, but the agentic part of it is then it can do it. And it it actions it as a person would with reasoning and flexibility and and it can teach itself and it can learn and it can gr literally grow and it can be like, oh, I made that mistake last time, it wasn't right, and it doesn't make it again. Um it's not like you know, RPA was a thing for many, many decades, you know, RPA, and it's so good, RPA is so good, you know, for processes that are super straightforward, don't need to change, you know what I mean, and um, you know, are just always gonna be if then this that, you know, great. But um, but there's quite a few processes within revenue second within healthcare where we need a little bit more flexibility. Um and because there's so many nuances, there's so many edge cases, so many exceptions, and there's like um, you know, there's standard, and then there's like every single office you go into. That's like, sure, everybody does eligibility and benefit verification, but everybody does it just a little bit differently, you know. So that kind of flexibility is needed.

CJ Wolf: 11:47
Do you think do you think uh agentec AI and and these these kind of newer tools that you're talking about will also help with, you know, when there's you know 12 different payers and they let's talk about one particular service and they all pay that service slightly differently, or they have a published policy um and they want it reported this way. Here are the coverage requirements, here are the pre-auth requirements, you know, here's what we need to see in the documentation. Do you think it has the ability? Do you think we're already there, or do you think it has the ability to grow into being able to look at all of those responses?

Vanessa Moldovan: 12:23
Yeah, I mean, I've I've you know helped to build some of this stuff so already at magical. So um it's and there's a reason to call it magical, honest to God, because I was even like when I first started with them, I was like, there's no way you can do this, but I'm a believer, you know. I'm there, you know. But I was like, but it is too complicated. Like I've been doing this forever, it's too nuanced. But but yes, we we do have, you know, so we have end-to-end prior authorization. We um can put in patient estimation that that does take into consideration contracted rates from every single payer. Um, takes into we can do historical information or your straight up, you know, contracted rates, um, takes into consideration individual payer policies, which we can do that at the appointment level, we can do the scheduling level, we can do payer policy at the claim scrubbing level, you know, just stuff we've not had time for as humans. Like nobody's got time to read an 80-page payer policy, right? That might have changed a little bit that we're not even aware of, you know, and being able to do that pre-adjudication now, um, because an you know, an agent can review that and review documentation in a split second and make decisions on this documentation is not gonna support this payer policy, just FYI, you know, when it goes out the door. Um, and so yeah, I mean, all of that, those intricacies it it can pull in and and you can add as many of them as you want or not, you know. So, you know, if you're not interested in, you know, payer policies, you don't have to, but yeah, so with prior authorization and um, you know, all the different portals that you have to go to, and just that initial decision of like, okay, this for this payer for this service line, which portal am I going to? And then all the questions that have to be asked, and it's a different for every portal, as we know, um, and then submitting the documentation and and also being able to say, like, hey, you don't have the supporting documentation for this, you know, and giving you the head, you know, giving the organization a heads up on that. And what I would say is that like um, you know, Agenta KI is new. It's 18, it's like 18 months old. It's it's not that, you know, old. So it is still learning and it is still growing and it is still advancing. So there are still things. So when people are like, oh yeah, it's my job, it's like, no, you know, there there are still things it cannot do, and it also doesn't make sense to automate it. So for example, you know, mutual of Omaha secondary eligibility checking probably doesn't make sense to automate. It's expense, you know, agentic AI is expensive expensive, right? So probably doesn't make sense when you, you know, we we all know it covers coinsurance and co, you know, like that's probably not something we need to be automating, or it's too complex and it can't, you know, uh make that decision yet. It can't make that determination, it's not smart enough yet to do the reasoning. Um, you know, then we, you know, so and magical at least we say, like, okay, this is the 10%, because we say we automate 90%. We never say we automate 100. We'll automate 90% of this. 10% still need your humans on. We we need their eyes on it, we need someone validating it, um, which of course we, you know, and I'm a huge supporter of that as well. You know, it's like um, you know, you need uh someone's eyes on this before it goes out the door, you know, um, to do a final validation on especially when it's something, you know, uh either high dollar or uh, you know, with high compliance around it, or you know, something like that. So um, but yeah, it's still learning and growing as well. Yeah. Yeah.

CJ Wolf: 16:04
Very interesting. Um, yeah, we're gonna take a quick break, everyone. We're gonna come back because this is such a fascinating topic. So uh hang in there, we'll be right back. Welcome back from the break, everybody. We are talking uh with Vanessa about revenue cycle, all the complexities, how automation hasn't really solved everything, but we're getting some pretty cool tools that are helping there. And Vanessa, you're talking about agentic AI and what you guys do at your company. Is that are are the end users that you work with primarily like professional uh billing encoding, like physician practices, or are you also working with hospitals, nursing facilities on like the facility side as well?

Vanessa Moldovan: 16:46
Yeah, we work with the facility side as well. Um and you know, I would say that there isn't um as much adoption yet with it as, you know, because and frankly, I think it's because um, you know, the physician side has kind of gotten ignored with some of this like really high-tech stuff, I would say. Hospitals tend to get more attention, they get more higher, bigger budgets, you know. So uh so I think that some of this stuff, um, and as we know, you know, fee for service has complexities to it that IPPS doesn't have, right? So they've kind of already had like the ability to identify underpayments and you know stuff like that. But but we have worked with, you know, like CDI and um with you know within hospital um revenue cycles on some of their uh process, but ASC, like you said, nursing home, you know, wound care, like hospice, like you know, uh facility, but yeah, facility and professional.

CJ Wolf: 17:42
Gotcha. Okay. So, you know, we you were talking about how people have tried automation, you know, over the last decade or so, and uh a lot of people still kind of feel overwhelmed with all the manual work. What do you think is different about this current shift towards the agentic AI that you mentioned and where you see organizations get some real value operationally?

Vanessa Moldovan: 18:05
Yeah, what's so cool about it is like, you know, you don't have to uh unplug other tech that you've already implemented, right? So you can literally plug in agentic AI wherever you need it. So for instance, for some organization, and we usually will start with like uh what spreadsheets are you using? You know, like and that usually is a really great place to start with what's manual, right? Because we all love a spreadsheet to help us with different, you know, manual processes. So this is, I think, one of the powerful things about agentic AI is how flexible it is, right? So it's not point solution where you know there's a list of you know these products that are pre-built and you just pick one and then we you know install it. It's not like that. It's it starts with a conversation of where are you doing the most manual work? Where are you, where are you like, hey, I'm paying these people 18 bucks an hour so they can populate a spreadsheet? You know what I mean? Like, where is it just brain-numbing, mindless work? And so, and that's a lot of like kind of going back to one of your questions that you had asked, like, um, as far as like what do we automate, what do we not automate? You know, it's like we we just like to start with like what is super high volume? And what is kind of easy, you know, because if we take that high volume off, then you have time to do the more complex stuff, right? So let's do your, you know, radiology prior off, and then you can do your surgery prior off, and you have more time for it, you know, that kind of stuff. But um, but I love the flexibility of the agentic AI because it's like, okay, you just put in, you know, Athena or whatever, and it does all these great things for you that you love. But you've got a few things you're still doing manually, or your people are filling in gaps or something. Let's just focus on that because the agents behave like humans. So if you've got a human that's uh retrieving faxes, scanning them, putting them into a file, or even if it's an e-fax, like you just have a human looking, what is this fax? Where should it go? You know, so document management, like even though we don't necessarily put it into a traditional revenue cycle, you know, workflow, we know there's still tons of documents, you know, that are um that are coming through all the time in in our work, you know, and they have to be appropriately, you know, filed and put away. So that's where I think that um it's having a real impact in in these manual things that we do, like going out and finding a uh a payer policy because we have to use the most current one and the time that it takes to like search, did I find the right one? Is it appropriate to what I'm doing? You know, that kind of stuff where um it's not your PM system, it's not your eligibility software, but it's all this other stuff we do to make it all you know come together.

CJ Wolf: 20:50
So if you have like a 12-step process, is this work being or is the agentic AI doing you know steps four through eight, and then there's hands-on before and after, or are you finding steps and work that it's just doing automatically and it's just out of your mind now?

Vanessa Moldovan: 21:08
Yeah, I mean it's it's really up to the customer. We can automate one through twelve, or we can automate one through four or eight through twelve, or you know, whichever part that you want to automate. We automate, but we we talk, we start the conversation with like what is gonna be most impactful, right? What is going to um, you know, relieve your teams? What's gonna allow you to get to that AR you haven't been able to touch and you just ride off every single month because it's below your $500 threshold, right? Like all these, you know, and once it's really amazing because I can always tell in a in a sales call where the light bulbs are starting to go off. Because once you start realizing the capability of the technology, you're you start really widening your scope of because we've never had this before, right? So we tend to think point solution. We tend to think, you know, um, of the limitations that we're used to. And this just Doesn't have those limitations. So once you start grasping it, and then you start thinking, oh, because sometimes you don't even think like and I did this too. Like you don't even think about that AR you're writing off because you because you automatically go, it's impossible. You can't do it. You know, nobody's been able to do it. You can't do it. So you so you don't even mention it. And it's like, so that and this is really a lot of my role on those initial calls, is kind of opening like the possibilities. Like, I know this hasn't been a possibility before, but it's a possibility now. So let's talk about the stuff you're writing off. Let's talk about the work that you can't get to, you know, let's talk about what keeps people here over time over you know in overtime, right? Those kinds of things. Um, positions that you just can't keep filled, and so you're short staffed and you have, you know, you need relief. So um that's where I really feel the uh the game changer is.

CJ Wolf: 22:50
Okay.

CJ Wolf: 22:51
So you know, I've worn multiple hats over the decades, you know, and I think the revenue cycle professional in me, like my mouth is watering. It's like, ooh, this is so cool. And then and a lot of our listeners are also on the compliance side where we're kind of trained to be skeptical, right? And so how would you how would you converse or share this information with a compliance officer who might be worried of, ooh, when you say automation from steps one through 12, wait, you're telling me there's not a single human involved? What about all the compliance problems that could happen? Yeah, like that come up in in your work, and if so, how do you talk to a compliance person? Okay.

Vanessa Moldovan: 23:30
Yes, and I love that you're bringing it up because actually, this is something like when I was consulting with tech companies before I joined Magical, I would always ask them, what are you doing for compliance? How are you dubbing a checkiness? Where is the human coming in to make sure this, you know, we aren't wearing jumpsuits by the end of the year, you know? Um, and I was always in it, you know, compliance, compliance. And, you know, anytime I would hear autonomous coding, I would start sweating because I'm just like, right, you know, like so um, so yeah, so very, very important to me as well. It's high on my radar as well. So, you know, we we did build a you know, coding agent as well. And, you know, it with through you my eyes as a certified coder, and you know, I reach out to people in the industry like yourself who are compliance experts, making sure that what we're doing is compliant. So that's why we also say like we it's not 100% automation, it's 90% automation because where we feel in the process, we're like a human should take a look at this, we have a human take a look at it, right? So the um the agent can complete it all, but uh just because it can does it should it, right? So um and we're constant, we constantly have that in mind. So typically how we work with the um with the company is uh you know, with the customer, is they'll have an expert on their end who's doing their auditing. So and we we we uh frame it in a way of like, if you hired me to be a coder in your organization, you would like you would audit my stuff, right? I'm there two weeks, you're gonna audit my stuff. Then you're like, okay, it's pretty good. Now I'm gonna audit you 30 days, you're gonna audit me again. And you're like, okay, we're still doing really good. Then we'll be in a 90-day audit and 120, you know. So it's very similar to that, where it's like we're keeping an eye on it, we're auditing it, we're um, and we do have audit agents as well, um, so that can actually audit the coding agent and then come back with those audit results, and then they can audit the audit, the auditor. Um, so you can do that as well. But um, but yeah, so having those checks and balances, and and that's even with the um claim scrubbing and the um, you know, so we're adding modifiers for so we always make sure there is someone on their end who is validating and doing these, you know, audits on on the agent. You know, is the agent doing, you know, doing what it should, and what is its score, and where do we need to improve? Um, and yeah, so that that checks and balances there. And so far, every compliance team has loved it. So so far.

CJ Wolf: 25:55
Yeah, I was gonna say, so so when you're implementing and when you're you know working with a client that's coming on board, you're probably have a lot of people at the table, right? You have all the revenue cycle people at the table, but you probably include those compliance officer folks if they haven't already wiggled their way in the room to begin with. So you get all the demands.

Vanessa Moldovan: 26:16
Yes, yes. And or if it isn't, so compliance usually comes up with like whenever we're talking about coding or claim scrubbing that might end up adding a modifier or diagnosis code or something like that. But then if we're talking about like eligibility and benefit verification prior off, we usually have somebody in the room who's like their top expert who really knows what should be being done, what should be being checked. And and um, and like I said, I mean, we we encourage them to have that internally in their organization. But I, you know, I would say, and and Magical feels very strongly about this, and I think any other organization who chooses to have individuals like ourselves in their company, is I'm always looking at like like the you know, just because it says to attach the documentation, you need to make sure it's the right patient, you need to, you know, check the HP uh PHI, you need to, you know, so those are uh the LLM, you know, the brain of the agent. It's being taught that type of compliance. Um so because I mean I help build them, so for lack of a better, you know, you know, I don't know what how else to say it, but um, but we're we're always thinking of that. And so we and and sometimes we'll have, as I'm sure you know, because you've worked with clients, you know, sometimes we'll have customers that are like it's okay. The patient's 70 years old. I'm sure they have Medicare. It's like, oh my gosh, we cannot make these assumptions. Or exactly, right? Right? Or she's 70, she's in menopause. You can just put the menopause uh diagnosis. Oh my gosh, no, we're not doing that. You know, so we gotta have the checks and balances for the client as well. So, in my role, you know, at Magical, I'm teaching the engineering team, the product team that you know, this compliance and this these checks and balances we have in the industry, right? And with coding, and you know, this is what coding is all about and the rules we have to follow, and you know, that kind of stuff to you. So very, very important. Yeah.

CJ Wolf: 28:04
So fascinating. Well, Vanessa, I think we could talk all day, but we're kind of running out of time. But I want to give you the last word. Any parting thoughts, ideas, maybe something we didn't discuss that you think needs to be uh talked about, or maybe something reiterated before we before we turn this up here.

Vanessa Moldovan: 28:21
Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. So, first of all, I I just want to say that um no one is losing their jobs with the, you know, with AI and with identic AI coming out. We're not losing our jobs. What it's doing is it's making us better at our jobs. So, you know, just paying attention to the changes in the industry, you know, it's like, you know, there was a time we had to make brownies from scratch. Like we don't have to anymore, but there was a time when you had to know that. Now you don't, and it's okay. You know what I mean? But you're you make amazing brownies from Debbie, you know, little Debbie. But um, you know, it just it it elevates us because if you think of all of in your daily work, all the mundane things that you do that don't really take the 10, 20, 30 years of experience that you have to do, if you think of that and you're like, oh my gosh, if I wasn't spending 10 hours a week even doing that, what other certification could I get? Or what you know, speaking engagement could I do or whatever to like elevate the R. So I just want to say that. And then also really when you're thinking about your careers and thinking outside the box of like, you know, I want to do something other than coding every day or billing every day or whatever, you know, tech companies are in need of people like you and me and them who know the industry. And you don't have to be like myself 30 years behind you, trust me. If you can write explain the workflows, explain why they're being done, explain the insanity of the payers, that's what they need to understand. And we need, we just need them out there because there's there is tech being built that is not compliant, and there is tech being built that's just making the problem worse, and they kind of don't know any better, some of them. So and finally, the last thing I want to say is um since you did say I could plug, is um I actually am releasing a book on my career and careers in yeah, and careers in revenue cycle. So this year I will be releasing a book just about how you know it it doesn't have a certain path, right? You can just there's so many options in this field, and really just and people ask me a lot, like, how did you end up where you are today? And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put it in writing, but also to encourage people that it's not a box, it's just not a box, like you can get a certification and do so many other things than you know what you're thinking, you know, it's just uh really wide out there. So um, and that's it.

CJ Wolf: 30:42
Awesome. Hey, we want to we want to know about that. Um, and when you know, if there's a link or something like that to it or that'll be coming forward soon. Yes, absolutely. We'd love to have that. I love what you said there, you know, talking about because what you just said makes me think of in the clinical sense, a lot of like doctors and nurses and nurse practitioners will talk about um practicing at the top of your license, right? So a doctor, and it's not that they're it's not like you're saying you're putting anyone else down, but look, you've been trained to do these really complex things. Yes, let's use that training at its maximum rather than have the doctor you know filling out a form, right? Like that's not right, and so it's like practicing at the top of your license. And so I liked what you said about it's not gonna take away your job, it's gonna help you practice at the top of what you're training and expertise.

Vanessa Moldovan: 31:36
So that's a good bring out your potential. You have so much potential. You know, what we do is not easy, and not a lot of people can do it. So, you know, you're super smart. You're not just in registration or just a bill or just a coder. It's incredible what what we do. It's it's tough. Yeah.

CJ Wolf: 31:55
Yeah. So Vanessa, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for being willing to take some time and share your thoughts with us.

Vanessa Moldovan: 32:01
Absolutely. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

CJ Wolf: 32:04
Absolutely. And to all our listeners, thank you again for listening to another episode. If you know an expert like Vanessa or you want to hear about a topic um that we haven't spoken about before, please let us know. We'd love to uh bring you what you want to hear. So uh until next time, everyone, take care.