Episode 132:
Career Moves for Coders Who Want More

Episode Chapters / Timestamps 

00:00 – Introduction to Barbara Shaw
Background in healthcare, coding, and early career experiences.

03:00 – Why mentorship became a passion
How chapter involvement during the pandemic sparked a deeper commitment to helping others.

07:30 – How mentoring relationships begin
From chapter presentations to LinkedIn messages and informal connections.

11:00 – What mentoring looks like in practice
Career goal conversations, exam prep support, and regular check-ins.

15:00 – Balancing mentoring with work and life
Setting boundaries and keeping support sustainable.

18:00 – Who is entering the coding profession today
Younger professionals, career changers, and evolving opportunities.

20:00 – Remote work expectations and misconceptions
Accountability, discipline, and long-term success in virtual roles.

22:30 – Professional development and finding passion
Exploring specialties, avoiding plateaus, and staying engaged.

27:00 – Giving back through teaching and speaking
How sharing knowledge strengthens both individuals and the profession.

29:00 – Final advice for coders and auditors
Take ownership of your growth and don’t be afraid to reach out.

CJ Wolf: 00:00
Welcome everybody to another episode of Compliance Conversations. My name is CJ Wolf with Healthicity. And today's guest is Barbara Shaw. Barbara, welcome to the show.

Barbara Shaw: 00:12
Hello. Thank you for the invite. I'm glad to be here. Very excited.

CJ Wolf: 00:16
Yeah, and we are. Thank you. We're so grateful that you are willing to take some time and we can chat a little bit about kind of a cool topic that I think a lot of our listeners will enjoy. But before we get to that topic, we'd love to know a little bit more about yourself if you're willing to share some things about yourself.

Barbara Shaw: 00:34
Sure. I've been in healthcare my whole career. Um actually, I started by going to nursing school thinking that I wanted to be a nurse, like my mom, who's a nurse practitioner. Did that for about a year and decided that that wasn't for me because at the time, and this tells you how old I am, in the physician's office, they had they had um transcription services. And so I was doing transcription at night to make money, and I got into the whole um spelling of the words. Um, you know, under the lady who was doing the coding, well, that was like before you needed diagnosis codes, right? So everything was CPT and so I was participating in that and I thought it was really interesting, you know, the whole thing and diagnoses weren't even about that. So then diagnosis got popular in time. And then and then, of course, like I said, I stopped going to nursing school, and then I decided I wanted to go right into healthcare. So that's when I started getting into the medical coding. And basically I worked in physician offices, spent about 20 years in OBGYN practices where they focused on high-risk substetrics, and that was really like the foundation for me getting into compliance audits. And then I got into doing coding and documentation and all the risk adjustment and population health and all that goofy kind of stuff, I guess you can say. And so here I am.

CJ Wolf: 02:11
So that's awesome. What a great background. Um, I love that. And uh it's cool that you've got all that experience in OB and sounds like a lot of other things too. So um, and with all that experience comes the wisdom that I think you have on this topic. We want to talk a little bit about uh mentoring, right? Um, I think back of when I started my career, um, I had a mentor and she was absolutely wonderful. And she helped me and and guided me in this world of coding and compliance. I I had a lot of clinical background, but I had no clue about medical coding and and those sorts of things. And she was wonderful. So having a mentor is so, so important. Uh and uh, you know, we mentioned that, or we saw, excuse me, on your you know, healthcon profile that uh, you know, you like to mentor new coders and and and that sort of thing. And um, you know, I'd love to hear just maybe initially before we get into some details, you know, what what do you find so rewarding in mentoring? Why is that an important thing for you?

Barbara Shaw: 03:20
Um, I guess I'm at this stage of my career where I'm not climbing my career ladder. So I have a little bit of extra time. I'm not doing like 13 meetings in eight hours. And so, you know, and and I'm not working 80 hours a week, so to speak, um, at my main job. And but really what really happened, I guess when the pandemic started, I used to um run marathons and I was a gym nut and everything like that. And I thought, what in the world am I going to do with myself? And so that's when I really put myself into working for my AAPC chapter. And so I started, yeah, so I started really getting into it. I've been a chapter officer every year since. And what I noticed was when I was doing um, you know, helping with the chapter, new coders were joining and we were welcoming them. And if we heard about job leads or people had questions, and so we started doing that networking that way, and it was all virtual. So everybody was either, you know, sending you a message on LinkedIn or they were sending you, you know, a messenger message, you know, or that sort of thing, or they would text your cell phone, and so some people would reach out. So did a lot of things like that. And then I just started speaking to some of the other chapters. Like I would notice, like if someone um had to reschedule a meeting last meeting, and a chapter would say, Oh, we're gonna have to cancel the meeting. I would, I would send them a message, you know, hey, if you want me to, I can present on these couple topics. And and then coders started reaching out, you know, new people, some people wanting to switch or get new skill sets. And so I've just kind of just been doing this. Little, I guess my little unofficial side side gig.

CJ Wolf: 05:07
That is so cool. If you don't mind me asking, what um chapter of AEPC are you um an officer in?

Barbara Shaw: 05:15
Um, I'm with the Suffolk, Virginia chapter. We're a small chapter in Virginia, and so that's that's where I am. And it's it's been great. And even when like the elections are coming up, and I hear some of the other chapters talk about elections coming up, and and I do encourage people. I'm like, I'll say to the chapter officers if I'm doing a presentation, you know, hey, I think it's wonderful, you know, please remember to vote, you know, participate if you want to, you know, accept a role and you know, just encourage, you know, exactly what you know AAPC set up our local chapters to do, and just you know, thank the chapter officers and encourage those. And that's what I do.

CJ Wolf: 05:56
That's so cool. I I teach in the AAPC Vilt programs, you know, so students who are trying to prepare to take a certification exam of some sort. And I always tell them, I say, get in touch with your local chapter. There are such wonderful people there, and you're bound to find somebody who's willing to guide you and help you along the way. You know, a lot of these uh new um uh students who, you know, they haven't even taken their certification yet, they're nervous. And I think they don't need to be nervous. I I know that they're, you know, they they want to do well, and so I can understand the nervousness, but if they got to know some of the people in their local chapters, I think that's a real uh blessing to a lot of people.

Barbara Shaw: 06:37
Right. And an interesting thing came about, I guess it was last year or year before last. I remember one of my nephews, his wife reached out to me and she said, she she she was a teaching assistant. She goes, I see, I see your, you know, you on LinkedIn. And she goes, I'm really thinking about doing coding, you know. And so, you know, there there came that, you know, I never thought to say, you know, have you ever thought about doing coding, you know, you know, medical coding. But but long story short, you know, just gave her, you know, information, shared with her, and she contacted AAPC and did the course, and you know, she would reach out periodically with questions.

CJ Wolf: 07:18
Yeah, nice, nice. Well, good. Well, so let me ask you too, you know, how do you align or connect with other coders in in this way? Like how do you how do you start those relationships?

Barbara Shaw: 07:31
Um, typically, usually what happens is I do a chapter, um, I do a chapter meeting, or someone within my own chapter will reach out to me to say, I'm a biller, but I want to get my CPC, or I'm a CPC, but I want to get my CPMA, or you know, what whatever the case is, you know, or exploring coding and and we'll just start a conversation and then I just see where they are because when that initial connection happens, sometimes you know, they're just talking out loud. Um, sometimes they're just getting a feel for it, you know. Am I is this really what I want to do? And or or if they're not sure about, you know, getting another credential, um, sometimes they talk about the different instruction, you know, if they're gonna do their own, they're gonna do the the instructor led, you know, and everybody learns differently. I tell everybody that. So, and even even when I do a presentation, you know, I'll have the verbiage or whatever I'm discussing on the slide. And then sometimes if there's like a chart or something, because you know, I mean, we learn differently, you know, by listening, you know, lectures, you know, with that audible writing, you know, visuals. So I try to do that because everybody's different. And then sometimes you'll come across someone that their learning style might be different than yours, and you can reach different people. So, but typically it's usually doing that. The person reaches out to me and we'll figure out if they're really wanting to do it. And usually what I do is I say, if you really want to explore this, you know, let's set up, you know, let's set up about an hour and let's talk about it. And then we usually figure out, you know, if this is going to be something that we're gonna do on a regular basis, or if it's just gonna be a one-time meeting or what have you.

CJ Wolf: 09:22
Yeah, nice. And what kinds of uh presentations are you doing? You you mentioned that you know sometimes that's the trigger. You might be doing a presentation.

Barbara Shaw: 09:31
Um, I do I mean, like I said, I worked in OBGYN for 20 years. So I do a I do a comprehensive OBGYM presentation. And then of course, being in risk adjustment, I can I can talk about that and auditing, outpatient CDI. I like to focus my outpatient CDI on specific topics, you know, if it's pediatrics or rheumatology. And then of course, I'll I'll do I'll I can do presentations on hematology, rheumatology, diabetes, um I and and I believe it or not, um I love the Medicare updates. So I didn't do it this year, but but I do. I really love that. I mean, you know, of course, you know, Medicare is not a great payer. You know, I I love the fact this year that the conversion factor, I mean, although it went up a minute amount, but I'm like, okay, we're going up, let's keep going. Right, right. So I, you know, being a previous practice administrator and knowing what that is in a practice, um, so there's certain things like that that I like. So then if I come across a doctor I've worked with before and we have a conversation, you know, I can talk about that or some of the new codes that might be applicable, you know, to the practice. So um that's what that's what I'd like. Those are the things I like to do. And I am I am working on a couple new ones, but um, but it's coming about. I mean, I'll share some of them after HealthCon.

CJ Wolf: 10:57
Okay. Yeah, well, that's a that's a very uh uh broad kind of set of uh topics. So you you've got a lot of experience in a lot of different areas. I love that. Um so let me ask you too. So like let's say then you know you've had this meeting with somebody and they're like, yeah, I think I'd like to, you know, do a little bit more of this. Do you what's your general process at that point if if you move forward?

Barbara Shaw: 11:21
You know, I have I don't have like a set way, and and I'll tell you, I'm really old school. So I get the note, I have binders, you know, every job we have, I have binders. And so I have loose sleeve paper like this, and I just, you know, and so when they make a phone call, so I can make those notes. So if they contact me, you know, a week later, a month later, sometimes people will contact me, you know, many months later and go, we had this conversation, and I'm thinking, I can't even, I can't remember this person's name or what the particulars were, and I can go back to it because I keep it in date order. But anyways, what I usually do is I ask them exactly what their career goals are. Are they looking for a new job? Are they wanting to, you know, add a credential or specialty to what they have? And then I talk to them. I'm like, you know, you know, sometimes I'll come across a person where they'll say, um, I'm studying for the CRC or the CPMA. And um, you know, can we do like a check-in? And I'm like, are you talking like every other week? And so if they do something like that, or they're they're doing the self-paced study exam or something like that, um, we'll do like little um check-ins and I'll tell them, and usually I'm a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday person. So I'll I'll tell them to pick a night, and if you know, we'll pick a time, and sometimes they have me review their exams, or they'll do a self, like a mock exam, and we'll review the the scores and they'll have me explain it or what my opinion is or what have you, and we'll do it that way. Um, and then it's always great after the person takes their exam and I get I get the phone call or the message that they passed, and I'm like, I'm like, yay. So, but that's typically how I set it up, and I tell them, you know, I'm I'm respectful of your time. I want you to be respectful of mine. So if we set this up, you know, every other Tuesday at six o'clock, you know, if you can't make it, it's okay. You know, we can we can reschedule, it's perfectly fine. And that's typically what I do. And I will tell you that um there's another gentleman in the industry, um, named I call him John P because it's hard for me to pronounce his last name. He's that great, you know, cardio, you know, IR coder. And he's done those um cheer, he's he he does it, it's called like the cheerleading coach or something like that. Okay. And every now and again he'll he'll do a phone call where he'll have someone meet with them and then we'll talk with people and give them ideas on what to do if they're wanting to explore, you know, specific types of coding, specialties, and that sort of thing. So he does a lot, he's done a lot of um WebExes and such, and sometimes I'll participate. So I try to help where I can.

CJ Wolf: 14:15
That is so great. Um, I want to keep asking you some other questions, but we're gonna take a really quick break, and then after the break, we'll come back and we'll continue this wonderful conversation. So uh stay tuned, everybody. We'll be right back. Welcome back from the break. We're talking to Barbara. She's sharing um a lot of good information about how she's involved in mentoring. Um, you know, and as you were talking, Barbara, it made me think of uh, because I'm a little bit further in my career too. And I I remember kind of in the middle of my career, that's what really got me going was seeing uh people that I had hired or knew, and then like watching them go to a new plane of growth, right? And being a part of that. And so the mentoring was almost energetic for me. Like it, it um it energized me to help them. And now we're still, you know, we're I'm still in contact with a lot of those people, and you know, they're now directors and they're doing all sorts of great things, and it's just it's exciting to be a part of their lives and and to kind of have that connection. Um, I do know that it can be time consuming, right? Um, so how do you incorporate that in into your schedule? I mean, that's very generous of you. And so how do you do it where you don't get overloaded?

Barbara Shaw: 15:30
I to it's really kind of interesting because I try not to do more than like one or two people at a time. That's that's the whole thing. And a lot and sometimes I can go like a month or two without you know anybody talking with me. But I usually tell them I'm old, I've been around. So so and that's why I'm like, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday evenings are great for me. Sometimes I'll have, you know, like the working mom that'll say Saturday morning would be really great. And I'm, you know, and I'll, you know, make those exceptions here and there. But I, you know, you have to limit it. If you're I've always been a firm believer that everybody needs to have balance in their life, like you can only work so much, you can only, you know, play so much. So it's just finding that even kill. So typically it's having one, no more than two people that I might be talking with or you know, doing these little meetings and such. That's it. And sometimes I have people that reach out and I can't do it. Um, you know, I have I have a dad. Well, both my parents have health issues, and every now and again something will come up. And, you know, I just explain to people, you know, I have my dad's got Alzheimer's, and you know, if my mom's not available, I I have to go. And a lot of people are pretty, they're they're very reasonable. I don't think I've ever had anybody that I've helped that's you know, was like, oh, well, this isn't gonna work. I mean, because they're they're grateful that I'm gonna share my time, but I guess the joy is that I love the enthusiasm of people that um are wanting to get into this career field. And then I love people that take ownership and their own professional development. So, because if you look at the jobs that we had in the industry, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, we have expanded dramatically. I mean, I mean, absolutely dramatically. I mean, there's so many different types of job roles and titles that so many people are in healthcare that were never in healthcare but are now. You know, you take someone that has great data analytics and that sort of thing. And they they've gone from working, you know, as an engineer where they're in healthcare. So just we have great physicians that get into coding, right?

CJ Wolf: 17:51
Yeah, I love it. That's right. Um, so I on that point, do you find that most people that are getting involved are uh are switching careers um or you know are a little bit later in life, or are you know, I don't see a lot of people coming like right from high school or college into this, but maybe that's some people too. What what's your experience been?

Barbara Shaw: 18:15
I don't know. I mean I've I've had it seems like the majority of the people that I have mentored are in their 20s or like their early 30s. So I've had I've had a lot of younger people, maybe they they just want to give me something to do because I'm old. I don't know. But uh so that's been kind of interesting. But um I I like seeing these people start their careers. Like I had one girl that um she she was working in a family practice, and then she got a job in orthopedics, and she called me and she's like, Oh my gosh, I love orthopedics. This is the best thing ever. And I told her, So let me tell you something. My mother's um specialty as a nurse practitioner was orthopedics, and I cannot stand orthopedics. I said, I no, no, no. And so, and I said, But I love you. I said, actually, I admire you that you love orthopedics. So, but it's that's awesome. Yeah, but every now and again I'll come across somebody that might be, you know, middle-aged that's made a career change and they they want to get into the industry. And I just try to give them, you know, information or any tips that I can to help them. Um, I can remember going to my local chapter when we always went to the meetings in person and just those people that were helpful to us. So I just try to, you know, think about those things.

CJ Wolf: 19:42
Do you do you see any common misperceptions that people have? Like, I'm curious, like, are people getting into this field in it from your experience and interaction with them? Because they think, oh, I can stay home and work in my pajamas and it can be all virtual and every and life will be easy.

Barbara Shaw: 19:59
Um, we all know that virtual work is not necessarily easy, but um, any misperceptions or um things that you think I would say the misperception, those misperceptions like that um are commonly now since the when the pandemic started, a lot of people wanting to work remotely. And and I can say I was working in physician practices. I was a practice administrator, had a bunch of friends who are auditors, they were working at home. I was tired of working 70 hours a week, getting phone calls, emails, text messages, and I was like, I've got to make a change. And that's when I shifted into 100% auditing, and I thought I can do this. So I was disciplined and working at home or remotely many years before the pandemic. So when the pandemic actually happened, I remember I was working at Duke University. We were only going in the office for like twice a month. That's all that we were reporting on site because of the work that we did. And, you know, we were disciplined, we were solid, and you know, we loved our jobs and our profession. So that wasn't an issue. However, within the middle revenue cycle, there were other people that were having to work at home and they were doing the nonsense stuff that you should not be doing when you work remotely. And so they had issues where we didn't, because like I said, we were we were almost 100%. And then, of course, a lot of people are 100% working at home. A lot of companies have realized, you know, pain, you know, all that overhead for buildings and such. And people are more productive at home, anyways. So you come across some people now that are like, I just want to stay home, where you know, if my child wants to stay home, or I can stay home with my dog, do my laundry, and it's like, well, yeah, you can, but you can't. I mean, you you you need to do that kind of stuff before, right? Right. So, but yeah, you'll come across some people that will do some. nonsense stuff and typically things do not work out for them. It's it's about accountability.

CJ Wolf: 22:07
So yeah, well put. Well put. What other any other ideas um for coders, auditors, just that you have that help them in their own professional development?

Barbara Shaw: 22:20
Well first and foremost, you should make the decision and do what you want to do and and you should love what you do, be passionate about it. It's just like when you have a hobby, you have that hobby because it interests you. You love it. It's joyful. So when it comes to you meeting someone who wants to explore being a coder, you have a coder or biller that wants to get into auditing or something where they can expand. And you just have those conversations with them and um you know let them let them know that you want you you should be as passionate about it you know now as you are and sometimes we kind of get to these little plateaus and that's when you you need to look within yourself you know is it is is it that the work is being methodical you know maybe you need to reach out to your manager you know that you know maybe you can do a special project or maybe you can do something with the platform you know that you're working with or something like that or entertain using a a tool or you know whether it's AI or what have you or um you know sometimes we do share collaboration meetings and you might want to you know talk with some other people you might identify something where you can collaborate do different things like that. So it's just a lot of good things that we can do and you know kind of bring that enthusiasm back.

CJ Wolf: 23:42
Exactly I love what you said about the passion my I because it made me think of what my dad always said he always said to me I he never worked a day in his life because he was doing something that he loved. And so he was a high school teacher and so he he went to work every day and was like this is fun right and and um so he's like never had to work a day in my life because it was something he enjoyed so I and you know to your point I you know and I think a lot of us think we're gonna like something and then we don't I think we not I think we should not be afraid to identify that and then switch. So like you said you've you had that one um contact who ended up getting into orthopedics and after doing something else and found that she really loved it. And so it's like I I some of the advice I give is you know be open minded and and kind of experience different things until you just find something that you love to do. And then it doesn't really feel so much like work, does it?

Barbara Shaw: 24:42
Exactly exactly I remember when I worked in physician practices and I would interview whether it's someone at the front desk or a biller or um a nurse the clinical staff and they would say well I have all this dermatology experience this is an OBGYN office and I told them I said you know the the basic work foundation is the same. It's just the scope of the practice that's a little bit different. But some of the things we're doing are are similar but learn the specialty you know try it out for a year or two see if you like it because there's a lot that you can do with a lot of these specialties and then some of these specialties have subspecialties where you can really get into it. And um but I I I would do that. But to talk about you know how you talked about your dad saying he never worked a day in his life well like I mentioned my mom is this retired nurse practitioner. So when the pandemic happened and she started doing these telehealth visits I remember um when she did her first one she go she called me up she goes Barbie she goes this was so great she said I did that visit with your dad and the doctor was asking about his blood pressure so I took his blood pressure you know and she goes I did a pill count you know she's all she's so serious and she still pays for her you know her her her nursing license and she gets her journals and everything I mean she is she's she loves nurse so it's it was so neat because she loved it.

CJ Wolf: 26:06
I mean she absolutely loved it and I remember contacting her telling her hey mom you know these virtual visits you know they're not going to be going on you know much longer you know they're they're about over she was like oh I love them they were so great that's great yeah she's got the passion too you know one thing I try to tell people too is is give back a little bit you know give a presentation I know a lot of people are shy but there are so many people that I've met in this field that really are experts in their area. You don't have to pretend like you know everything, but give a presentation that's focused on what you do know.

Barbara Shaw: 26:44
So I would recommend to a lot of people for their own professional development to you know maybe a you know submit a proposal to speak at a conference or something or it doesn't have to be a formal conference maybe you volunteer to speak for a chapter right because the chapters are always doing you know monthly uh meetings and stuff and just share what you know and I think when you share what you know um that's can be very rewarding number one but it also helps you develop professionally it does and sometimes those people will reach out to the chapters they'll say hi my name is so and so I have this great presentation you know on eye diseases and disorders or what have you and then and and oh I'm the education officer so I I love that I'm I will contact you in a heartbeat and I I reached out to a couple people um like a friend of mine she has she has I don't know like a dozen AAPC credentials and a HEMA credentials she just got her master's in cybersecurity I sent her a message I said how would you like to do a presentation for my chapter in cybersecurity and she's like sure I mean oh my gosh the name of the thing is called the guardians of the patient data I mean she's got this title that is just like I'm like oh I'm I can't wait to publish that one when that comes out because she's been studying cybersecurity for the I don't know how many years now and she's got that master's so but anyway but yeah it's like you'll come up I mean it you can come across someone and they have great experience and you know X, Y, and Z. And it's like, wow, you really know a lot about this. So you're you're so right. You're so right.

CJ Wolf: 28:26
Well Barbara I have really enjoyed talking to you we're kind of coming to the end of our our time I wonder if you had any last minute thoughts or comments or or anything before we uh before we end.

Barbara Shaw: 28:37
No, I just encourage everyone to be in charge of your professional development reach out to the speakers you know reach out to your chapters whether you know you're looking for some help or some encouragement they may not be able to directly help you but they might point you in the right direction I'm sure you do that too. But long story short these people are working in the industry a lot of us have been here for a while and we'll do what we can and that's that's the whole foundation and that's that's what we should do is you know encourage those you know as we can well said very well said thank you so much for taking some time out of your day to to share these thoughts with us really appreciate it. Great thank you for the invitation.

CJ Wolf: 29:25
Too bad and to our listeners thank you for listening to another episode uh as always we ask you if you know of somebody like Barbara who has a passion or an expertise in something and would make a good speaker please let us know. And if there's topics you want to hear about please let us know. Until next time, take care.